Back For Profit Trading

Back For Profit Review

Let me start off by saying that, “Back for Profit” is by far the best trading method for In-Running horse races that I’ve ever seen.

The guy who runs it, Andrew Banthorpe, is a fantastic guy and a real joy to work with. As an aside he has agreed to give a 10% discount code of the joining fee to anyone who uses the code on this page. See details at the bottom of the page.

Why is he so good?

Quite simply, he is head and shoulders above anyone else I’ve ever dealt with when it comes to experience and know-how for trading horses In-Running. (IR)

His race reading ability is off the charts. I’ve watched hundreds of his trades via video link and been on the phone to him while we were both live trading the same race. He is astonishingly good and wins an absolute fortune.

It’s a measure of his character that he rarely posts up screenshots on Twitter showing his wins. From a marketing/self-promotion point of view, he is miles behind other traders who offer training material and courses.

If he had a different personality, he could have people queuing up to join Back for Profit, (B4P) just by showing his trades each day. He would be inundated with requests to join, but the guy is so modest it’s ridiculous.

Other Courses I’ve Tried

Just so you know I’m qualified to judge a trading course when I see one, here is some history to my quest for trading success.

When I initially started Betfair trading (Jan 2019) it was scalping pre-race (horses) and like many new traders, wet behind the ears, I spent money on some of Caan Berry’s training stuff.

Then (April 2019) I started to learn about IR after buying an IR eBook from Tony Hargraves (TH) otherwise known as The Badger. This is how I started to learn about IR, trading horse races.

I also attended a 1:1 session with Tony at this house and sat next to him and watched him trade live one afternoon.

The second IR course I tried was the Hunting 4 Profit (HFP) one day training course. The HFP method compared to TH and B4P is like trying to compare Apples & Oranges. The H4P method is IR yes, but it’s a totally different methodology.

So no comparison would be fair.

I’m sure there must me some who have mastered it, but I came to the conclusion it wasn’t for me. Maybe if I’d carried on for another 6-12 months I might have been able to get the hang of it but I wasn’t prepared to carry on with it.

The average newbie trader, myself included, desperately goes from one method to another trying to find success and has been on more courses than Arnold Palmer.

Arnold Palmer
Golfing Legend: Arnold Palmer

That is part of the reason why I didn’t even admit I’d signed up to B4P initially. It smacks of a lack of discipline, and the work ethic required to be successful, if you just keep chopping and changing.

Trading is like a training merry go round for newbies, every course you go on you meet people you’ve met before on other courses. That’s what keeps the trading marketers in business, there is always a steady stream of losing traders desperate to try the snake oil they are selling in search of the holy grail.

So what about B4P?

I truly believe that Back for Profit is the best kept secret in the trading world, mainly because Andrew is terrible at marketing!

B4P Trading In Running

He has the best IR product but the worst marketing strategy. (By his own admission he doesn’t really have a marketing strategy)

This Reviews Parameters

I’ve spoken to Andrew (B4P) to check how much detail I could go into with the review, and in fairness to him I’m not going to “reveal all”.

I will though endeavour to give you a flavour of the B4P method and concentrate of some of the key differences to other IR methods I’ve tried and why I ultimately believe it is so good.

Who is/isn’t the B4P course for?

I would say that if you are a total Betfair trading novice and you’ve never even traded before then this probably isn’t for you. It assumes some level of trading knowledge.*

I would think that if you’ve only ever traded pre-race and have some knowledge of the ladders and trading basics then you could certainly try this.

A pre-race only trader would need to work harder initially and watch lots of race replays etc to pick up the signals that IR traders typically look for. On a positive note you won’t have the bad habits to unlearn that a lot of us have!

It would be better if you’d not only traded before but tried IR trading previously as having some race reading experience will certainly speed up the process.

Most IR traders have experience but just lack the discipline/consistency needed to succeed. I’m confident that Andrew could sort you out if you are prepared to take on board his methods and work hard.

Who is it not for?

This is not for anyone who can’t put in a reasonable amount of screen time each week. When it comes to any trading method, it’s quicker and easier to pick it up if you can devote a decent amount of time to it.

Weekend warriors who work F/T and then try to fit trading in at the weekend will struggle to get the consistent screen time needed. Most weekenders struggle trying to trade even at the weekends when the other half is nagging them to go shopping or visit the in-laws.

If you do work F/T but your shift pattern would allow or you get home at a reasonable time each day and could commit to weekends and maybe a couple of evenings in the week, that should be fine.

In truth you can sign up for as many training courses as you like, but there is no substitute for screen time.

So what do you get?

As soon as you’ve signed up to the academy, you’ll get access to all the online training material. There is a lot and I know you’ll probably be as impatient as I and every other new member is but take your time and read all of it carefully and make a start on the videos.

There are a lot of them!

You will get the option to download the “Bet Angel Servants” that Andrew has devised. I strongly recommend that you use them.

Early days Andrew will speak to you 1:1 on the phone and make sure you have the servants set up correctly. The reason Andrew only takes on a very limited number of new students each month (normally 4 or 5 max) is because they all need extra help in the early days and weeks.

You get full access to the B4P Telegram room. It is a nice small group and it’s terrific. There are the established members who are really successful, and the newer members like me. The old hands are very friendly and are always willing to offer help and advice if Andrew isn’t online for any reason.

Most new members like me have tried various training methods previously and we all have very similar flaws to our trading. You can ask anything you like in the group they really won’t mind.

When you join you get access to the Telegram group and the information Andrew (and others) put in there each day is worth its weight in gold.

Training Material

The training material in the academy has these main headings.

Introduction, Trading Set up, Bet Angel (BA) settings & servants, Race Selection, Race Reading, Entry Lay trades/Back trades, Exit trades, Updates and latest videos section and so on and so on.

There is also a library of stuff for each and every racecourse in UK & Ireland. Here Andrew gives trading information for each track. This is worth the joining fee on its own.

Entry Lay Trades

In this section he explains the reasons for entering a trade and those crucial entry points. He does the same for Back to Lay trades as well and both sections have lots of videos showing real examples of exactly what he is looking for and why. The videos are all recordings of his screen as he is trading, and he talks you through his thought process.

Updates and Latest Videos

Often, he’ll do a video in the morning looking at the days racing and things to look out for. He also posts new videos on a regular basis with trades he has done that day. So you might trade the 2.00 pm race and a few hours later you can watch him trade it.

This is good when you’ve done the race yourself and its fresh in your mind, to see what he is thinking as they are going round.

You can compare your entry point to his which is really beneficial.

I have recorded my screen a few times when I’m trading and you can share the video privately with him so he can review it and give you feedback.

One to One Help

Every member has the option to book a one to one call with Andrew whenever they feel they need one.

I enjoy our chats even when I get a bollocking! (He’s from Yorkshire so he tells it like it is.) The main thing is, when you talk to him on the phone you can tell how passionate he is about trading and how much he wants you to succeed.

It’s not a case of “I’ve had your money so go away and don’t bother me”. He really wants you to do well.

Back for Profit Methods

OK so here is an outline to some of the key things about B4P which stood out for me.

Number One

Safety, Safety, Safety.

There are many things that make the B4P method safe and in fairness to Andrew I’m not going to share them. Suffice to say that B4P only looks for safe and secure trades.

Where this differs for me against other methods I’ve tried is there’s a clearly set out plan. A clear set of circumstances that Andrew teaches you to look out for, before you enter a trade.

This means you might watch 5 or 10 races without entering a trade on any of them. You need patience for this, but patience will get its rewards.

Also because of the B4P race selection criteria there are lots of races we don’t even watch.

The whole method is wait and watch, wait and watch and when all the things he is looking for come together then, bang he pulls the trigger. The difference is though that for him that one trade will equal a week’s wages for most people.

Number Two

Race Selection Criteria.

This is the one aspect of the training that was the biggest eye opener for me. It deals will the “make up ” of the race regarding the prices of the horses and why some markets are safer to trade IR than others.

Number Tree

Bet Angel Servants

There is an old stock market saying, “Cut losses short, let profits run”. Overall that’s great advice.

To put it in IR terms it means that if you are trading a 3-mile chase at Wincanton and you place a manual lay bet on a horse and the price is drifting slowly don’t be too keen to take a green, leave it a bit longer to try and maximise your profits. Alternatively, if the price starts to turn against you, trade out instantly and take a small red.

Now I used to get that right most of the time. The problem I had with IR though was I would occasionally misjudge when to take a green and sometimes by being greedy I ended up turning what should have been a decent green into an horrendous red. Maybe because the favourite had fallen or something.

B4P has developed a great set of BA Servants which takes away most of these decisions from you.

Again, I’m not giving details on how these work but they have increased my level of consistency by a long way.

Are there races where I could have won more without using them? Yes of course but it’s the ones that you get wrong which are the main problem and these servants take away the chance of you getting too greedy.

Steady consistent profits are the key to this.

Number Four

Help and support

The Telegram room as I’ve already mentioned is great. To see what Andrew puts in it each day about the days racing, the tracks and what to watch out for is trading gold.

As an added free bonus to members, Andrew runs a Horse Racing Syndicate and although we don’t share in any winnings we get all the updates and info on the horses in the Telegram room which is a nice.

So there is the group help and support which is a broad-brush approach and then there is individual help. My biggest problem has never been that I don’t win enough on winning trades my main problem has always been that I lose way too much on losing ones.

B4P in general is helping me get those under control, and Andrew in particular is working with me personally trying to get inside my head.

Back for Profit: Summary

At the time of writing this review I’d only been with B4P for two and a half months and even then I knew 100% that this method offered me the very best chance of IR success of anything I’ve ever tried.

(I joined at the end of Feb 2020 and wrote this in April/May 2020 but if you wish to see how I’m getting on now you can see my blog updates)

I’m not at the level yet that I want to ultimately get to, but I’m super confident going forward.

This method is better, safer and more structured than anything I’ve tried before. It takes time to learn the B4P process but mentally it took me a longer time to adjust to the discipline required. If you can make the required changes to your mental approach then B4P is a winner for sure.


If you are looking for “instant trading success” you won’t get it with B4P method, the same as you won’t get it anywhere else. Whichever method of trading you try it takes time to learn, hard work, discipline and screen time.

Even with my previous IR experience I needed several months before the penny dropped.

Discount Code

The normal joining fee is £299 and after the first 3 months there is a monthly payment of just £24.99 to maintain your membership of the Telegram rooms and access to all future training updates, course guides and 1:1 coaching.

Use the link below to get £30 off the joining fee.

Visit Back For Profit Website Here

Password is: Discount10

There is a strict limit on the number allowed to join each month so the membership is not always open. If you have any questions email Andrew via:

You should mention you’ve read my blog, so he knows you have at least some idea of what to expect.

Follow Up Review

I wrote this original review not too long after I joined B4P but I’ve been a member for over a year now. So you can read an update review here.

PS. Just a post script for anyone who is already a member of the B4P Telegram trading group and is thinking “There isn’t anyone in the group called David Griffiths”. Well it’s a long story but my screen name on Telegram is “Will Barrow”.

PPS. Purely for the benefit of any cynics reading this, let me state that Back for Profit does not have an affiliate scheme. (Read my full affiliate disclosure policy here)


  • Theo

    Good evening. I’ve read all your progress reports and ive found it really interesting! I’m a total newbie to trading. I cant make my mind up whether to go down the path of pre or in-running.

    If we could get in touch for a chat I’d appreciate that a lot!!

    Kind regards

  • david makepeace

    Hi there, I’ve just finished watching the video. It’s so encouraging to see your progress, well done.
    1) does your liability on L2B change as the day progresses? i.e. race 1 = £25 liabilty if it wins, then Race 2 liability increases? and so on and so forth. OR do you stick to the initial Race 1 liability per race for the whole day? Some races come thick and fast on busy days, and it would be quite difficult to re-calculate your revised liability

    • runlikeadrain

      Hi David,

      The liability does change after every race I trade but the software does it for me. I use Bet Angel and it allows me to set liability to % of bank and it calculates it for me every single time I place a trade. So if I traded 4 races in a day my liability would be different for each race.

  • Tim


    This is a very good review I have also really enjoyed reading about your journey.

    Is it possible to have a chat? That would be greatly appreciated.

    • runlikeadrain

      Yes no problem Tim. I will email you from my personal email address (which is a one so check your spam if you don’t see it) and we could perhaps arrange to have a chat on Zoom or similar.

  • Peter Donnelly

    Good to see you’re doing well. I’ve followed your story on Twitter (@Peadairbd) and your blog. I started trading around the same time as you but haven’t been able to dedicate any serious time to it as yet due to building my house in France and related issues. 2021 will hopefully be different and though I currently prefer pre-race and reckon I can do well with it, I can see the value of learning to trade IR. You seem to have found a solid place and I wish you all the best. When I’m ready to get serious about IR I reckon B4P will be the place I go. Happy Christmas and a profitable New Year!

    • runlikeadrain

      Hi Peter,

      Thanks for posting.

      Yes I recognised your name from twitter as soon as I saw it. I pretty sure your twitter account was one of the first ones I ever followed, way back when I started trading. I did pre-race first if you remember, but I don’t mind admitting I was terrible at it.

      Fortunately after a lot of hard work, I feel I’ve turned a bit of a corner with my IR trading so if ever you want to chat about IR I’d be happy to do so.

      I’d be interested to hear more about your property in France by the way. After Xmas I’ll send you a private message on twitter about it as I run some France related websites for my day job.

      Anyway thanks again for taking the trouble to post a comment.

    • runlikeadrain

      Hi Rob,

      I’ll email you from my private email account (its a one so check spam if you don’t see it) and then you can ask me via that email. Its easier for me to access the blog one.

  • Jonathan

    Hello David

    Thanks very much for this review; it’s both insightful and interesting. Like most others, I’ve dabbled with pre-race trading so far with limited success. I’d welcome the chance to have a quick chat with you about your journey with B4P.



    • runlikeadrain

      Hi Jonathan,

      I will send a reply via my personal email account. (You might need to check your spam folder as it is a email account)


  • lincoln harper

    Hi David.
    I have just read your excellent review of back for profit ,and would like to ask you some questions via email if that’s ok.

    Regards, Lincoln.

    • runlikeadrain

      Hi Lincoln,

      I will send you an email via my email so you can then send your questions to that email address. (I check it more often than the one for the blog)


  • Enzo

    Hello and thanks for the amount of information you shared

    b4p membership is currently closed or i have not found the correct link?



    • runlikeadrain

      Hi Enzo,

      Back for Profit only takes 5 new members each month so as soon as 5 sign up he closes membership. The membership normally re-opens on the last Friday of the month ready for the next months intake.

    • runlikeadrain

      Yes you can. I have replied via my personal email which is a email address. Ask your Q via that email address as its easier for me to reply.

  • mark jackson

    Nice blog and review David, after years of really not getting pre race trading ive switched my attention the last few months to in play, yep Im not giving anything away here but having watched literally a couple of thousand races I can now see opportunities when to lay especially and the odd back, Ive actually put a hold on using real money until i have the correct set up and confidence in my judgement, I do think the next step now would be to join the back for profit website. A question I have for you if you dont mind, I do find it difficult sometimes just using betfair live pics as the screen is so small, do you at all use racing tv? If so are the pictures as quick as the exchange and do they show all racing? Ideally id like something like that on a seperate monitor, thanks in advance.


    • runlikeadrain

      Using the Betfair Video is fine whilst in training mode (play money) or small stakes.

      It is possible to resize the BF video and make it bigger and have it on a 2nd monitor if you wish. Though the bigger you make it the less sharp the picture is, so its a balancing act.

      RTV pictures are normally 1/2 a second behind the BF videos but I use them because I can watch them on my HD TV screen and that means I don’t get horses in similar silks mixed up and I can spot very subtle signals like the merest flick of the reins on the neck etc. Also on foggy/rainy days I can still trade safely.

      They (RTV) cover every Irish racecourse and a share of the GB ones with SKY. Rough guess I’d say they have about 2/3rds covered. See the full list here;

      I would not recommended you get RTV until such time as you are starting to make some regular profits. Normal price is £25 per month but you can get it on Black Friday and Cheltenham week and things like that with a special offer deal. (I pay £10 per month but its a 1 year contract)

  • Alfie

    Hi David,

    Been following your blog recently and just had some questions on B4P if you would be kind enough to answer ?


  • Paul Jones

    Hi David ,I’m also intereted in joining this course ,my only question is will it be totally reliant on how fast you’re reactions are ?

    • runlikeadrain

      Having quick reactions certainly helps but we don’t rely on faster pictures or anything like that. Improving your race reading skills and spotting subtle signals helps you enter at a better price though and that will increase your chances of a successful trade.

  • Ed

    I’m interested to know if the recent updates to bet angel to allow performance data into that application showing current horse speed and position etc will be incorporated into the course ? Thanks

    • runlikeadrain

      The performance data is not part of the course as it bears no relation to the Back for Profit method of trading. I don’t subscribe to the performance data and currently have no plans to do so.

  • Luke

    Hi David,
    I really like your blog and your progress is very inspiring to me. I have been interested in IR irregularly for about a year. I paid for Tony Hagervs’ course, but I still can’t make regular profits. May I ask you, what do you perceive as the main difference between the courses from (TH) and (B4P)?
    Thank you for the answer

  • Richard Morris


    Nice review thanks. I’ve emailed in the hope of joining..

    How does broadcast picture time delay affect your trading as you are probably up against track side traders?



    • runlikeadrain

      Tracksiders don’t affect what we do. They mainly make their money from fallers, those that miss the break in sprints and backing the winner 100 yards from the line.

      I suspect that most of them, without the edge of faster pictures, would be losing traders.

  • Ben

    Hi David,

    Thanks for your fantastic commentary. I am looking forward to joining B4P but see memberships are closed currently. Hopefully they are open again soon!


  • Mike Newman

    Bugger – I joined B4P last week and then found your blog, so missed out on the 10% discount! :):) I chuckled at the Arnold Palmer comment – I’ve played a few courses too. But I think you are right, B4P is different and the way Andrew’s knowledge and experience comes across is inspiring. Good luck!

  • Daniel

    Hi David,

    Reading the other comments, I see you offered to reply to another chap about the difference between Tony Hargreaves course and B4P.

    I would also be very interested in the reply.

    Many Thanks

  • Dee

    Hi David
    I’ve just joined, after reading your blog, great read. I’m having trouble getting the setup right, is this something you can help with, or is it best to contact Andrew!
    Thank you in advance, keep up the great work.


    • runlikeadrain

      Hi Dee,

      Andrew is better than me. Email him:

      You should join the Telegram room (The main Back for Profit one) as you can ask questions in there. I think Andrew has gone out now as he has finished trading for today, but he will get in touch as soon as he sees your email.

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